Sarah-Ann: Hi, I'm Sarah-Ann-Ann Cromwell and this is a conversation with Rodrigo Orquera of Misfits Music about how he made his rock workshops accessible to my friends at Sandwell Visually Impaired. I am a 5'6" slim build white woman with shoulder-length brown hair and blue glasses. Give me all your learning and all your tips. Rodrigo: I’ve been thinking about it a little bit, and I have a few very specific things to mention. Looking back, if I'm being honest, I didn't feel nervous or unprepared before taking over the project, and it's been a very, very pleasant experience in general. I think some of the participants mentioned this as well, it always depends on the people, the number of people, and the setting. Half of it also depends on the people organising these things, so that's thanks to you, thanks to Tony, and thanks to Sandra. You're very open way of introducing me to the group gave me plenty of freedom as well. I felt very comfortable in the learning process because I was aware there was going to be a learning curve in the first couple of sessions, and there's always more to learn. From my side, I'm going to try to name mainly two things that are important when working with groups in general, which of course apply to this setting as well. The first one is being honest and transparent from a leadership point of view. I've seen other leaders make this mistake and maybe in the past I would have made it as well which is trying to cover up mistakes or divert attention instead of acknowledging them. It's best to be transparent. It's okay to make mistakes, and it's okay to let people know if you don't know something, or if you are trying a new approach that doesn't work. Even if it's as simple as the songs we choose, sometimes a song just doesn't work, and there isn't always a clear reason why. Sometimes it's just a bad choice, and nobody enjoys singing a song they don't like. If you can't find an attractive way to present it, it is okay to just leave that song out and try something different. That honesty applies to so many things, including the way I talk to the group, the exercises we do, and the times we dedicate to having a chat or taking a break. Over the years, I've found that being honest with people and with yourself makes things easier from the start. Sarah-Ann: Absolutely. That makes total sense. Rodrigo: Excellent. And the next point, if I can get my voice back, sorry, I'm coughing a lot, it's that time of the year! I have thought of one more thing that is incredibly important. Let me just reference my notes from a couple of days ago. I would summarise this next idea into one simple thing: being flexible. When I say being flexible, it means you still always need to be prepared. I don't improvise sessions. Maybe at some point in the past, if I was crazy busy one week, I had to do that with other groups, but I always found it very unpleasant because people can tell when you are improvising. So, even though I've been doing this for a while, I always plan each session, including the specific timing for different activities. However, most of the time, I end up changing that plan on the spot. I do this by trying not to impose my ideas, plans, or feelings over what the group actually needs on the day. That need could change for many reasons. It could be because our regular singers didn't make it that week, or because the energy in the room is different—maybe it's raining heavily outside and everyone feels a bit low. I am always open to how people feel, though reading the room is not always easy, especially in a new scenario like this was for me. In the first couple of weeks, I was very careful to take a few seconds just to observe what was happening in the room rather than just concentrating on my pre-planned agenda. Being flexible is one of the most important things, and it's not easy to develop, especially when accommodating different needs. If you have the same group every week, it eventually gets easier, but in many community settings, you have new people joining alongside your regulars. This takes me to my last point: it's okay not to know certain things. Sometimes leaders feel pressured to pretend they know absolutely everything. Nobody knows what they're doing all the time, and people can sense when you're faking it. If an activity isn't working, don't feel pressured to force it. Diverting, taking a pause, or redoing the activity in a different way is often the better solution. I work with trainees at Misfits and in other scenarios, and a common thing I see with beginners is panic when an activity takes less time than planned. They think, "I don't know what to do, so I'm just going to improvise." Sometimes it's perfectly fine to say, "Okay, we're going to take five minutes," or "I just need to get a glass of water." Likewise, if someone asks you a question and you don't have the answer, don't lie or try to invent something fancy. Just say, "I actually don't have the answer to that right now, but it's a great question. I will look into it and get back to you." When I started, I felt like I had to have all the answers or it would show weakness, but it is actually quite the opposite. Sarah-Ann: That's great, thank you. I wanted to chunk this into audible sections so people can listen to bits while they are driving or walking. There are many things we take for granted. For example, I take for granted that I know what the space, the room, and the people look like. Yet, if I compare our SVI (Sandwell Visually Impaired) Rocks sessions with other workshops and choirs I’ve run with sighted people, it is actually very different. From your perspective, can you describe the environment and how it might be different to other spaces you've worked in, for example, the presence of guide dogs? Rodrigo: The dogs were absolutely fine; I didn't find that stressful at all. It's just a matter of being mindful that they are there. As you pointed out during the concert, if we are very loud, the dogs are going to react to it. Acknowledging that before starting an activity is something I want to do more of next time. I initially assumed everyone in the room already knew the dogs were there and how it worked, but that's not necessarily the case. Acknowledging the different species in the room is always a good thing! In terms of the environment in general, it was not that different for me because I always try to adapt to the specific room. In this case, we had very comfortable chairs, which doesn't happen in all venues. We also had instruments that needed more space, like the keyboard, and we had a table, so there was nothing we desperately needed to physically adapt. It was much more about how I positioned myself in the room: when to use the microphone, and when to sit with the group versus standing. For instance, I never asked them to stand up, and I didn't even think about it until now. That was an instinctive choice on my part because I could see it might cause more trouble than benefit, especially with the dogs. If the participants stood up, the guide dogs might immediately think it's time to work, which would change the energy. People also might not feel as comfortable standing up when they don't have the physical security of knowing where their table, chair, and cup of tea are. There's a phrase I use a lot during training with Tony: "If you're comfortable with this..." I offer options rather than commands: "You can close your eyes if you're comfortable," or "If you feel comfortable standing up, you can." It's about giving options, not telling people what to do. Sarah-Ann: You are incredibly good at being flexible on the spot, and it is an absolute joy to watch you adapt your teaching within seconds. I feel like I have to tease these things out of you because you rewire your brain at a phenomenal speed to adapt. In traditional choral leading, things are incredibly visual. If I need a group to quiet down, I just raise both hands and there is silence. Obviously, that doesn’t work if the group can't see you. For a classical conductor, the question would be, "How do you count people in?" In our rock band setup, I noticed you adapted how you brought people in and how you brought songs to an end. Can you talk about that process? Rodrigo: If you’re doing an a cappella choir piece and you don’t want to count them in, that's a tough call! In a rock scenario, it is much easier because you can use classic musical cues, like drumstick clicks. Still, I did have to change a lot. I tend to use my hands and body language a lot when leading. I realised during our first sessions that while I can still do those things, I can't depend on them. When leading pop or rock bands, I usually lead with my guitar, but I do it in a very visual way, dancing around or jumping to give cues. Knowing that wouldn't work here, I had to use my voice much more. I tell my trainees that you have to find a balance between what works for you and what works for the group. When you're leading, you aren't the performer, even though it's tempting to get swept up in a song you love. I had to learn how to use my voice while singing to signal specific cues. If I step in to sing a particular line, the group knows it means a transition is coming. We also leaned heavily into the musicality of the arrangements. For example, when we played "I'm a Believer," I would play a tiny guitar intro during rehearsals and say, "I'll play the intro, and we all come in right after." Because of the music style, sometimes it was just easiest to say, "One, two, three, four," and start together. I also realised, partly because the dogs reacted to it, that tapping my foot heavily on the floor helped keep the beat physically present in the room, letting players like Bill know exactly when to come in. You can't fully prepare for these things beforehand because you'd just be guessing. You won't know what works until you are actually in the room, and that's okay. Having a "Plan B" in my head gives me peace of mind before going into a new setting, even if I don’t end up using it. Sarah-Ann: Thank you, Rod. And finally, can you tell us a bit about yourself, including your name, Misfits, and where people can find your work? Rodrigo: I am Rodrigo Orquera, which is a very hard name to say, so people call me Rod! I work for Misfits Music. Put simply, we try to bring people together through music. I lead the Rock Collectives, but we also have instrumental groups and orchestras. In my groups, we mainly play by ear, and all instruments and abilities are welcome. The fun challenge is making that setup work so it's neither intimidating for beginners nor boring for advanced players. Personally, I’m a music leader, composer, and songwriter. My own musical project is called R O V. I’ve done a lot of teaching at different levels, including schools and at the university where I studied in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I got involved with community music about three to four years ago, and it opened up a whole new world for me. At Misfits, we always say that the music comes second; what we do is about the people. The thing I enjoy most is connecting with others through music. A perfect performance doesn't matter; what matters is that we are enjoying ourselves and working together. Sarah-Ann: Brilliant. And what are the websites where people can find you? Rodrigo: The website for Misfits is misfitsmusic.org.uk. For my own music, search for ROV music on streaming platforms, or look for my Linktree. Sarah-Ann: Brilliant. Thank you very much, Rod. Rodrigo: Thank you! Honestly, this has been one of the best experiences I've had since I started doing this kind of work. I'm very grateful for the opportunity, and I hope this encourages more people to get involved. Sarah-Ann: Thanks for listening. If you’re interested in making your work accessible to our Sandwell visually impaired community, you can find more information, downloadable sheets, stories, and infocasts at sandwellvisuallyimpaired.org.uk. Supporting each other.